Jean-Luc, Luc, and their interviewer talking at the EGX Rezzed stage.
A panel called "Developing Daniel: How A New Type of Choice & Consequence System Affects Your Experience in Life is Strange 2" was held with Producer Luc Baghadoust and Lead Writer Jean-Luc Cano at the EGX Rezzed 2019 trade fair on April 6, 2019. During the Developer Session, the key themes and political implications of Life is Strange 2, the development of deuteragonist Daniel Diaz and the game's choices and consequences mechanism were discussed, including the themes of the third episode.
Video[]
Description[]
"Join Lead Writer and Co-Creator Jean-Luc Cano & Lead Producer Luc Baghadoust as they delve into the story so far, and how the intricate new choice & consequence system in Life is Strange 2 changes the way players have to think about their actions."[1]
Transcript[]
Introduction and Story Recap (00:00)[]
Interviewer: Hi, everyone! Thank you so much for coming, and welcome to another amazing Developer Session here at Rezzed. I’m so excited that you’re here, and I hope you’re excited as well, because we’ve got a great one today, so without further adieu, join me in welcoming Jean-Luc, the co-creator, and Luc, the lead producer, for Life is Strange: Season 2!
Luc Baghadoust: Hi!
Interviewer: I should say “Life is Strange 2”. Thank you so much for coming! How are you both? Are you well?
Jean-Luc Cano: Yes, we are.
Luc Baghadoust: Yeah, things are pretty good. Things are wonderful, being here, yeah, we've had a little bit of sleep. [?] of sleep in two days, so I hope it's gonna be okay.
Jean-Luc Cano: And sorry for our French accents, you know, [?] our best.
Interviewer: Well, I should say there are – we’ll be touching on a few spoilers today, but we’ll try and, you know, keep it worthwhile for you. So, first of all, should we do a little recap of what happened in Life is Strange 2, the story so far? Where are we at with the Diaz brothers?
Luc Baghadoust: (to Jean-Luc) You want to do it?
Jean-Luc Cano: (gesturing towards Luc) No, please.
Luc Baghadoust: So, like, you want me to explain where the story is?
Interviewer: Yeah, where we’ve got to, and…
Luc Baghadoust: Yeah, so first, it has been - for all the people who have played the game - this terrible incident in Seattle who pushed Sean and Daniel to go on the road by themselves. They met nice and less nice people along the way, and finally, they ended up, in Episode 2, at their grandparents' house, their grandparents they had never met, and then a lot of stuff happened. They met Chris, that people who have played Captain Spirit will recognize, and also some interesting folks at the Christmas market while purchasing a Christmas tree, and all along, the power, Daniel's power, has kind of evolved, and the role of Sean in this episode is to take care of his little brother, and it's even more complex with the situation they're in, and the fact he has a power, of course.
Key Themes (02:20)[]
Interviewer: So Jean-Luc, what are some of the key themes, then, that you’re trying to set up with these first two episodes?
Jean-Luc Cano: In the first episode - imagine Life is Strange 2 as a whole game divided in five parts. Each part has its own themes and its own subjects that we want to discuss and want to talk about. In Episode 1, the main game is all about education – how you take care of someone else, how do you educate your little brother, how your actions are going to shape his behavior. So in the first episode, it’s an episode about ‘the flee’, making choices in an emergency situation. The second episode is about the rules. When you have to educate someone, when you have to take care of your child – or, in this case, your little brother – you have to create some rules. But in episode 2, we wanted to talk about the fact that the rules you’re giving to a child, you have to sometimes break it, and there is no good or bad rules, there is just choice in life. That’s why when you tell Daniel it’s bad to steal something, sometimes you have to steal to give him food, so stealing is a bad thing, but in a certain way, when the situation needs it, you have to break your own rules. That’s the meaning of episode 2. And episode 3… will have its own theme, episode 4 and episode 5, too, so all of these five episodes will lead to a complete education.
Road Trip (05:36)[]
One of the photographs Michel Koch took during his road trip.
Interviewer: I suppose one of the biggest changes of Life is Strange 2 is that it’s not static, so you’re not in one place as a road trip structure, so I just wanted to ask about that and the journey they’re going on. Why did you decide to have them moving in this game?
Jean-Luc Cano: When we first asked ourselves, when we began to work on Life is Strange 2, we asked ourselves ‘what is the real DNA of Life is Strange as a franchise?’ Is it about Arcadia Bay, Max and Chloe, or stuff like this? And we discussed a lot with Raoul and Michel, the two game designers, as Luc as well, and we figured that Life is Strange is about relatable characters, social themes, and actual environments, and with a little bit of superpower. So for Episode 2, we wanted to keep this DNA, but to change all the settings. In Episode 1, we have Arcadia Bay, we have this little town - you knew all the characters, because you met them episode by episode and you can dig into them. But in Life is Strange 2, we wanted to change ourselves and change the whole settings, with two brothers instead of Max and Chloe, and the road trips to visit more locations and meet lots of characters in society to educate Daniel.
Interviewer: You guys went on a road trip - your idea, isn't that right?
Jean-Luc Cano: (nodding) Yes.
Luc Baghadoust: Yeah, I didn't participate, the first trip you had with Michel long ago, but Raoul and Michel, they did almost the same trip as the one we have in Life is Strange 2, so it was really inspiring for them to meet people and locations and put this back in the game.
Interviewer: So how, then, did you - the places the boys go and the different locations, are they sort of drawn from that trip, then?
Jean-Luc Cano: Yes.
Luc Baghadoust: Yeah, it's a lot inspired by the pictures of the two, what they felt was matching the game's intention, and the west coast of the U.S. is kind of magical for that, a lot of very cool locations. Life is Strange 1 was about the Pacific Northwest. Here, we have more different locations, and some things that are not on the main path, like smaller roads, what you see when you drift from the main highway, when you take the small roads, what kind of people, what kind of locations you see, and usually, it creates amazing pictures.
Interviewer: Yeah, we see some great places.
Jean-Luc Cano: When we did this road trip with Michel, we went from Seattle, we go down to south from the 101 - it's a big highway to the west coast - and we met a lot of people, and some of these people are in the game, you know, that inspired us, some locations - "oh, okay, that's amazing, let's do this" - so it was really inspiring for us.
Interviewer: What was your favorite place that you saw on the trip?
Jean-Luc Cano: I can't tell you, because it's not in the game yet.
They all laugh.
Interviewer: Okay, you can keep some secrets, then. There is a connection to the Pacific Northwest in this, as well, and to Life is Strange, the first game. What is it about that area that's kind of been so inspiring for these games?
Luc Baghadoust: I think there's something there, the mood, the light - California in general has very nice lighting, I think, but the whole West Coast is very nice. I've been on a trip, as well there, around Seattle. The sea there is amazing. Everyone who has been there, I guess, can be inspired by this.
Politics (08:05)[]
Jean-Luc speaking in front of a slide depicting Officer Matthews.
Interviewer: Let’s talk a bit about some of the serious themes that come up, as well. There is a lot of issues that have come up already in the first two episodes around minority characters and the politics inherent in that. Is that an important theme you wanted to tackle from the start this time?
Jean-Luc Cano: Yes, it’s important to talk about these society themes, these issues, it’s important for us to talk about it, but it’s also important not to give our, um…
Luc Baghadoust: Just our own opinion. We cannot push our own opinion onto people, what we think is important is to put yourself in other peoples’ shoes and try to develop and perceive how you would react if you were put in this situation, instead of just saying ‘this is bad’ because it never works – you cannot say to someone “hey, don’t be racist” and "okay".
Jean-Luc Cano: What we want to create is to make the player enjoy the game, of course, but also have a reflection about some scenes they probably doesn't [sic] know about. We started in Life is Strange 1 with themes of euthanasia and social school [?] and stuff like this, and we continue in Life is Strange 2, but just to provoke some discussion. You know, it's "Oh, okay, I didn't see stuff like this" or "I didn't see this point of view", "it's made me wonder 'oh, can I react to this?'" - it's important for us to help people to think about some of these subjects.
Interviewer: Is it difficult designing some of the scenes and choices around that, to make them feel more neutral? Because when I play, I know who I feel is wrong in the situation very strongly.
Luc Baghadoust: You have to be very careful with this, even the wording, when you see a choice and you have to choose between A and B, even the wording itself must be precise enough to you to understand the option you're going to take, but also not to give a hint about what you should choose. We usually try to do some play tests during development at some point, and we can see that the choices are not balanced as maybe they should, so we make sure the wording is right.
Jean-Luc Cano: It's also important to say that there is no canon choices - you have your own adventure, and even if it's different for a friend of yours or other players, that's not a problem. Everyone has its own adventure, and we don't, as a developer, as creators, say "that's the good choice, that's the good ending" - everyone has to make his own choices with his own morale.
Luc Baghadoust: Right, and on the scale of a game, there is a lot of work, because you cannot just not care about some branch because only few types of people would take this branch. You have to take care of all the players, because they will see - unless they are a huge fan and want to play and do and see everything - they will probably only have one path of the game, and it has to be good, whatever all their decision is, so it's a very important part of crafting the game, as well.
Interviewer: Do you worry, or have you thought about, the idea that staying neutral is a stance in itself, right?
Luc Baghadoust: I don't think we are neutral, as long as we are talking about these scenes, we are putting these scenes into the game, uh, and, and...
They all laugh.
Luc Baghadoust: I forgot what I was saying.
Interviewer: That's okay. Um, what kind of research did you do when you were putting these themes into the game? Did you do consulting, as well?
Jean-Luc Cano: Yes, because when you are dealing with social themes and stuff that is important, you can't write it - "I think it's the good thing" and I write - you have to do some research, so we read a lot of books, see a lot of documentaries, even on the internet, we have a lot of chats with different people, so I don't know the [?] of the Mexican [?], but we try to make it very respectful and honest, you know. So yes, it's not something that "yeah, okay, we are going to write a story about two Mexican kids, yeah, let's do this", no, we have something important to say, we have these choices, so let's dig it.
Choices and Consequences (12:45)[]
Jean-Luc and Luc speaking with the interviewer.
Interviewer: Well, let's talk about the choices and consequences. That's always been a big part of Life is Strange, and obviously again in Life is Strange 2. How has your approach to designing choices and consequences changed in Life is Strange 2 - because they're on the move, so I suppose the consequences have to follow them and you don't always know immediately what they might be?
Luc Baghadoust: On Life is Strange 1, yeah, everything took place in Arcadia Bay, so it easier, like you said. Now, we are changing locations with each episode, but something that, that's still here is these brothers, Daniel, and that's the key thing - the choices you make, or the experience, affect your own perception of things and also, directly, your brother. And sometimes you will, like Jean-Luc was saying, you teach him something bad because he needs to, it will influence him, and all the choices and consequences also, you know, observes through Daniel's behavior. Because he will do things by himself, he will not sometimes wait for your advice, and you will see this in the later episodes. He can take decisions by himself based on what he saw, what he experienced. So this is the kind of thing that will tie all the episodes together.
Jean-Luc Cano: In Life is Strange 2, the consequences of your choices are less obvious than Life is Strange. But, as Luc said, we worked a lot on Daniel's behavior, and even if you don't notice it because it's your game, you will see that your game is different from your friends or other people with little cues that Daniel are saying, is it saying bad words or not, it's - there are a lot of little differences you don't notice, but they are there. So of course, you are going to have some big consequences, but yes, it was all choice from the beginning to make it less obvious.
Luc Baghadoust: Like even the AI, the fact that Daniel will walk alongside you or he will walk a little bit behind, or he will...
Interviewer: I didn't know that!
Luc Baghadoust: These kind of things, his behavior and, like Jean said, some cues will be different. A lot of small things will be different depending on your relationship with him.
Interviewer: And you mentioned, Jean-Luc, that our friends' playthroughs will be different - my playthrough is really different to some of my friends. Is it difficult making sure that players still get the experience you want, or the episodes have the same emotional highs and lows that you kind of want the player to experience, when you could experience them differently?
Luc Baghadoust: Yeah, it's kind of hard to know what is the path the player will take. Like I said, every path has to be good, but sometimes a very cool scene, like at the end of Episode 2, there are cool scenes that happen in bad situations, but the cinematics themselves are very cool, and we know many players won't see that.
Developing Daniel (16:04)[]
.png){kind=link}
A slide describing the mechanics of Sean and Daniel's relationship.
Interviewer: The title of this panel is talking about developing Daniel, so let's talk more about Daniel. In this game, it's not you that has the power, so that's a big change, as well. Has that affected the way you develop the choices and consequences, as well?
Jean-Luc Cano: Yes, of course, because you know, the power in Life is Strange is part of the DNA of the franchise, and the power is linked to the weakness of the character. So in Life is Strange 1, Max was a teenager, insecure, she wasn't naturally confident, and the power of rewinding time makes sense for her own weakness. Life is Strange 2 is about education and how your action will impact the behavior of Daniel, so the power is not yours. It's on Daniel, because the way he will use this power - for good or for bad, for fun, will depend on your behaviour, your action, and your way of playing. That's why we give the power to Daniel and not to Sean, and because Daniel will do more and more independent decisions based on your choices. You will see.
Interviewer: I know that, it's what you do, your actions matter more than what you tell Daniel, right? So he learns by doing, kind of...
Luc Baghadoust: I think both have an impact.
Interviewer: Yeah?
Jean-Luc Cano: Yes, and even the small choices, even the small dialogue choices you make with your grandparents or with someone - Daniel is always listening. Always.
Interviewer: When you think about how Daniel learns as a character, did you think about, you know what it was like when you were kids and how you learned?
Luc Baghadoust: (chuckling) I was the little brother, so I can't understand the responsibility you have when you're the bigger one, but (to Jean-Luc) I don't know much you projected yourself.
Jean-Luc Cano: I have a little sister. She was a pain in the ass.
They and the audience laugh.
Jean-Luc Cano: Yeah. (pointing to Luc) You know, you knew her! But yes, to be honest, I put some of memories and some stuff into Daniel, but not really - Daniel and Sean aren't typical, new characters, and we created them from scratch. Sometimes, we say with Michel and Raoul "ah, I remember my younger self was like this!" And like, "okay, but how is Daniel?" Daniel is completely new. We use a lot of memories, but not really to create Daniel, maybe to create some situations.
Interviewer: One thing I think is really interesting is that there are no adults in their lives, for the most part, who are being good role models. Their grandparents are very nice, but like certainly, in the first episode and the later part of the game, most of the adults they meet are unhelpful or kind of aren't very responsible for them, and it puts a lot of pressure on Sean and the player.
Jean-Luc Cano: That's the point of Life is Strange 2 - to put someone in charge, but someone who is not ready to this. Sean is sixteen years old. He wants what a sixteen-year-old wants - he wants to party, he wants to have fun, he wants to go to school - and that's okay, but to put him in charge of Daniel in this situation, of fleeing and being an outcast and being chased, yes, it's something we wanted from the beginning of the game. So as a player, you are in charge of a little kid, you "yeah, I don't fucking [?]", but yes, you have to do it.
Interviewer: Do you think players' kind of feeling towards Daniel changes over time, as well, then? 'Cause they're in charge of them to start with and they're kind of like "ah, I don't want him", but they kind of get to like him, and he's, you know, growing and learning?
Jean-Luc Cano: Yeah, it was a real challenge for our team to make Daniel as believable as possible. So sometimes, he's a pain in the ass like my sister, sometimes he's really cute, but we wanted him to act like a real kid. So, you know, when you do nothing, when you put your controller on the table, Daniel is going to (gesturing circles with his hands) go around you and say "Hey, Sean, what are you doing? Hey, Sean", like a little... We wanted to give him a lot of free action, he's going alone to see something in the location and stuff like this, and yeah, we wanted to make him as believable as possible, because the main experience, the core experience, is the bond between the two brothers. So if you fail this, you fail the game.
Daniel’s Morality (21:07)[]
Interviewer: We've got a little bit of time to talk about Episode 3, as well - I think we've got the teaser to play for everyone, is that right?
(The screen continues to show slides of Daniel in development.)
Jean-Luc Cano: Cool.
Interviewer: (laughing) Do you want to skip through a few more? So the design of Daniel is really lovely, as well. I really thought, I wanted to look after him, and I felt really bad as a parent because I didn't feed him properly and he was cold. He seems very vulnerable, even though he's really powerful.
Jean-Luc Cano: Yeah, that's how kids are. Even if Daniel has a power, but power is a metaphor for what kids have inside them. If you raise well your kid, all the potential, he will use this for good or something morally good. If you don't raise him with the good stuff and the good teaching, all this power, all this potential will be used for selfish stuff or even bad stuff. So that's what will happen to Daniel in effect of your choices.
Interviewer: With great power comes great responsibility. I just made that up.
They all laugh.
Episode Three (22:25)[]
Life is Strange 2 - Episode 3 Teaser
The teaser for Episode 3, shown at the panel.
Interviewer: Okay, there we go, so we've got the teaser here for Episode 3.
The teaser for Episode 3: Wastelands plays.
Jean-Luc Cano: Whoa.
Interviewer: Woow. (laughs) So, I'm gonna wrinkle some information about Episode 3 out of you if I can. So that seems like we're gonna meet the drifters, the cool kids we saw in Episode 2?
Luc Baghadoust: (slowly) ...yes.
Jean-Luc Cano: ..yes. Yes. We have to process what we can say and what we can't say. Yes, we are going to meet the cool kids again.
Interviewer: (laughing) Yeah. What are maybe some of the themes that we're gonna encounter in Episode 3?
Jean-Luc Cano: Yes, um, you know - so you experience the education, the rules, and when you're raising a kid, there is sometimes a moment in life where your kid - or your little brother - is not always agree [sic] with what you're teaching and is in opposition, and that's somehow will happen in Episode 3. Daniel will be more and more independent, and when Sean will want to explain him some stuff, he'll be like, "okay, I'm big now, I do what I want", so "no, Daniel, you are not big enough" -- that will be one of the main themes in Episode 3, independence and evolution.
Luc Baghadoust: And the power itself, as well, you see him train in episode 2, and then, of course, he learns to master a little bit more of his power, so of course it has an impact on the relation with the brothers.
Jean-Luc Cano: Yes, because they are getting to be more and more powerful.
Favorite Choices and Audience Questions (24:35)[]
Interviewer: Okay, well, exciting stuff. I think we have time for some questions now. If anyone has some, there's gonna be a mic brought up to the middle there, so if you've got a question, just pop up behind the mic there. Lovely. We'll see if anyone's gonna come up. (to Luc and Jean Luc) What was your favorite choice that had to be made in the first couple of episodes?
Jean-Luc Cano: I can't really talk about this, about my choices, because I know what major choices will affect Daniel - even the little choices will make a huge difference between Daniel's behavior.
Luc Baghadoust: The one that I care about always was the animals ones, so I was really happy, in Life is Strange 1, the people who let Frank's dog die on the road - it was the smallest percentage we had. It was like seven or eight percent in the world of really mean people. But in Life is Strange 2, for me, in Episode 2, where you have to choose with the mountain lion, if you want to let Daniel express his anger or cool it down. For me, it's like the count of numbers I'm watching carefully, because... yeah, I care about that.
Interviewer: Amazing, alright. (to an audience member at the mic) Okay, thank you so much. Okay, what's your question, then?
Audience Member: Hi. Um, sorry, I'm a bit nervous, um...
Jean-Luc Cano: Don't be, don't be!
Interviewer: I am, too, it's fine!
Audience Member: Before I ask, I just wanted to say thank you for making Life is Strange and Life is Strange 2, like I've been a fan for a long time, and I feel like you guys do something that a lot of video game developers kind of shy away from, and I think that's really important, so thank you for that. So my question: you kind of touched on it a bit. You mentioned that one of the themes you explore is kind of racial injustice, and my question is, did you have any reservations about tackling that subject, especially since it's kind of so relevant to the political climate right now?
Luc Baghadoust: I think, yeah, it was part the scenes, like Jean-Luc said, of the story, since the beginning. When we started to discuss this, there was the weird political climate there is right now. We were kind of scared at first to get the approval of Square Enix about this, but they were very supportive about the, you know, this topic, they didn't shy away from that, so we are very grateful about that. And yeah, we had to be very careful with how we deal with that, but yeah, I feel it's really important. It's weird times like now, where um, I know when the new Wolfstein game is announced and people are all, "oh, you shoot Nazis", and yeah, you should, and so, it's, yeah... (laughs) fuck. Yeah, I feel it's very important to have this kind of theme and deal with them properly and do something about this.
Interviewer: Great question!
Audience Member: Lovely, thank you!
(The audience member returns to his seat.)
Interviewer: Cool. Alright, I think we're gonna wrap up now, but thank you so much to everyone for coming, and if anyone has some more questions for the guys, I think you'll be around for a little bit after the show as well. Thank you so much everyone for coming and thank you for watching, and thank you, Jean-Luc and Luc!
Gallery[]
Michel Koch's Research Trip[]
Daniel Diaz Milestone Renders[]
Other[]
.png "EGX Rezzed 2019 Panel Interview - Sean & Daniel Concept Art (30m47s).png (2.04 MB)")
.png "EGX Rezzed 2019 Panel Interview - Sean & Daniel Concept Art Edit (30m47s).png (778 KB)")
After the Interview[]
TBA